Talk:Brandon Teena

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Discussions on this page often lead to previous arguments being restated, especially about which pronouns to use for Teena. Please read recent comments and look in the archives before commenting on that topic, and read through the list of highlighted discussions below before starting a new one:

The subject of which pronouns to use for Teena has been discussed here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, and here. Per MOS:GENDERID, Teena should be referred to by the pronouns, possessive adjectives, and gendered nouns that reflect his gender self-identification as male.

Restarting a debate that has already been settled constitutes disruptive editing, tendentious editing, and "asking the other parent", unless consensus changes.

This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

This article was nominated for deletion on 19 May 2009. The result of the discussion was speedy Keep/withdrawn.

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A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on December 31, 2013 and December 31, 2023.

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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 4 June 2019 and 31 July 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Cbrown98.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 16:12, 16 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"anatomically female"

User @82.4.161.186: replaced "was anatomically female" with "had a vagina" with edit summary "To say that someone has female anatomy is transphobic. Teena was a man with a vagina". User @Philipnelson99: reverted with no explanation.

The IP user is correct that it is transphobic. I will add that terms like "anatomically female" or "biologically female" don't really make sense when applied to a trans body, and are needlessly vague when "had a vagina" is clear and concise. --Wickedterrier (talk) 03:16, 31 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I don't understand why the technically accurate term "anatomically female" would be considered transphobic. Can you point to a style guide or two to support that contention?- Mr X 🖋 03:18, 31 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure it is accurate though. People tend to have more than one piece of anatomy. Some people have boobs and a penis. Would such a person be "anatomically female" because they have boobs? Or "anatomically male" because they have a penis? "had a vagina" is completely unambiguous.

Here's a guide from HRC: https://www.hrc.org/resources/reporting-about-transgender-people-read-this

No. 7 mentions the term "biological" and "anatomical" is being used here in much the same way.

GLAAD mentions problems with the term too: https://www.glaad.org/reference/transgender --Wickedterrier (talk) 03:48, 31 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@MrX and Philipnelson99: I have to agree with Wickedterrier and the IP on this one. There's really nothing about genitalia that's "female" or "male", and "had a vagina" is unambiguous. However, the source doesn't actually say anything about Teena's genitalia: Grabbing Brandon, they unfastened his pants and pulled them down, demanding that Lana have a look. They wanted her to just admit that Brandon was a girl. According to her account, she shielded her eyes. They insisted, so she looked but said nothing. Perhaps it would be better to reword the sentence to During a Christmas Eve party, Nissen and Lotter grabbed Teena and forced him to remove his pants to show Tisdel his genitalia or somesuch? GorillaWarfare (talk) 14:32, 3 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I take your point GorillaWarfare and agree that your proposed wording would be an improvement.- Mr X 🖋 19:39, 4 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure HRC really applies for this. It wasn't really used to contrast trans with real men, only to the extent that mentioning being trans does. GLAAD only mentions anatomy as the way to determine sex, so in the meaning that there is a specific female anatomy.

It might be time to change it back after 5 years. 2A01:36D:118:C86F:61A7:135:644E:BBDF (talk) 11:36, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Use of the name "Brandon Teena"

The article note of the Brandon Teena name stated it was "unclear" how often he used this name, though this is uncited.

Two other articles characterize "Brandon Teena" as a name he "never" used:

D'Erasmo, Stacey (October 1999). "Boy Interrupted". Out. 8 (4). Here Publishing: 66. ISSN 1062-7928.
Springer, Claudia (2013-05-17). James Dean Transfigured: The Many Faces of Rebel Iconography. University of Texas Press. p. 113. ISBN 9780292752887.

If other books/magazines/media contradict these statements, the article should cite them IMO. WhisperToMe (talk) 07:26, 22 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Name query

Note 1, right at the very beginning, says, "Other names may include his legal name, as well as 'Billy Brenson' and 'Teena Ray'", but under "other names" the infobox has "Billy Brinson". Presumably Brinson and Brenson are referring to the same name, but which spelling is correct? Alternatively, if both are, perhaps at least "Brinson" could be added to the note? Happy days, ~ Lindsay^Hello 19:41, 31 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Deadname

I object to this terminology in the article as I believe it needlessly pushes the discussion in a political direction. This will distract from the substance of the article and Teena's story. I edited to "pre-transition name" (with a link to the deadnaming article), but that appears to have been reverted and the page locked. Is there guidance from Wikipedia on this sort of thing? Alta-Snowbird (talk) 04:08, 23 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Well, i reverted you primarily because (as i explained in the edit summary) your edit was poor grammar; you can't just pull out a noun ~ "deadname" ~ and replace it willy-nilly with an adjective ~ "pre-transition" ~ because they are different parts of speech and function differently in sentences. You could, i suppose, have written "pre-transition name", but that is very close to what we have as "deadname". The best place i can point you is to this guidance. As far as i can tell, from there and from our article, it is fairly regular and usual nowadays to use the word "deadname", which i think i what you are objecting to? It certainly is not a political statement, except to those who choose to make it so, which seem to be a close to circular Venn diagram with those who deny transition. If i have entirely misunderstood you, i apologise and ask you to re-explain just what you mean ~ Lindsay^Hello 11:22, 23 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

FWIW, I agree entirely with Lindsay's reasoning. "Deadname" is a perfectly common and neutral term; if a reader does not understand what it means, there is an article about it that's linked from the word. --bonadea contributions talk 13:18, 23 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]